2010.03.25 Judaism and Christianity Discussion

Dr. Howell and Rabbi Murray Ezring met with an audience of MPUMC people and Temple Israel people to discuss Judaism and Christianity.

Rabbi Ezring began with saying another session is planned on "Are Biblical Miracles Real?" He does not yet have a date to announce.

Dr. Howell began by asking who are the chosen people. He talked about how it felt to be "unchosen" like a teen at a dance who doesn't get asked to dance. It doesn't feel good to be part of the unchosen. God did choose Abraham and Israel.

In Deuteromy 7, God tells Israel not to intermarry with other peoples and to destroy their idols. Deut 7:6 "For you are a people holy to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the earth, to be his people, his treasured possession." So Chosen means to have responsibility. God asks of us as well as blesses us. Genesis 12: 1-4 "Now the Lord said to Abram, "Go from your father's house to the land that I will show you. I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." So Abram went, as the Lord has told him..."

Is God breaking his promise to the Jews by also choosing the rest of the world with Jesus? We think of God as a promise keeper, not an untrustworthy promise breaker. God does the choosing, not humans - so God chooses both - He chooses to bring us all into covenant with him. In Isaiah 43, God chooses and fashions a people and when they sin he blots out their sin and forgives. Isaiah 43: 1-3 "But now thus says the Lord, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: Do not fear, for I have redeemed you: I have called you by name, you are mine. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you; when you walk through fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you. For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior." Isaiah 43:23 "I, I am He who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Then in Isaiah 44, the people choose and fashion a god - it is idolatry when people make their own gods. It is not people who choose gods, rather it is God who chooses and fashions people.

Being a chosen people implies it is God who does the choosing. He can choose more than one group of people. Americans often think they are chosen. But this becomes a way of attaching arrogance to God's name because we think our preferences are God's preferences. It implies that our preferences are the "chosen" ones since we, as Americans, are the chosen.

Christians, over the years, have done terrible things to the Jews and this is tragic since we should be friends of one another.

John Calvin had a high view of God's promises because he said God promised and does not break his promises. Karl Barth at the University of Berlin said Jews are to this day the chosen people of God and if we Christians also have this promise, it is only as guests in their house.

John 4:22 "Salvation is from the Jews."
Romans 9 discusses whether God has rejected his people and the answer comes back, "no". In Romans 11: 1 and 2, Paul writes "I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew." Paul continues that salvation has come to the Gentiles too.

Dr. Howell mentioned a writer (Palikan?) who says the church has suffered due to its loss of Jewish thought. God does not choose a single people but a people. God gave the Torah, the law on how to live a holy life.

In modern politics, what is the Protestant viewpoint on policy about Israel. Are the Palestinians victims and justice should be on their side. Some believe that deeply. Dr. Howell believes we should be in sorrow over the tensions there but we are obligated to be friends of the Jews.

Rabbi Ezring: It feels good to be one of the chosen people. But he thinks actually God calls Jews to be a special people to God, rather than use the word, "chosen." In the Sinai experience, God put Israel in the place of the bridegroom with the Torah as the bride. Torah was a gift before creation even began and he gave it to the people at Sinai. The bride chooses the bridegroom in a wedding. So does this mean the Torah chose Israel. However, the groom also chooses the bride so the choosing is mutual. Israel and the Torah chose each other mutually. There is a story that God offered Torah to other peoples but only Israel chose to accept it.

Jews do not believe they are the only ones with a relationship with God. They are Jewish because of God's covenant with the Jewish people. Jews willingly accept their Jewishness. If they do not, then they are not considered Jewish even though they were ethnically born as a Jew.

He went into the fact that Jews make up only .02% (14MM Jews) of the world's population yet have won 24% of (161 of 700) Nobel Prizes. Jews look at their special relationship with God at a responsibility rather than as giving them privileges. Their efforts in the areas honored by the Nobel Prize are seen as evidence of their striving to meet those responsibilities to the world.

However, Jews think Christians, Muslims and other religious groups have their own path to God. Jews do not think they have the ONLY path to Him. God loves each of us.

Howell: Luke 17:20-21 "Once Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the Kingdom of God was coming and he answered, " the Kingdom of God is not coming with things that can be observed;....the Kingdom of God is among you." Some translations have Kingdom of God is within you. Dr. Howell thinks this is an unfortunate translation. Jesus was talking to the unchosen at the time he said this and these people were not respected as a group of people so Jesus meaning was that the Kingdom of God was among the people.

Jesus was primarily a Jewish teacher. He did not go around thinking of himself as anything other than that. He told stories in order to teach. His stories were full of the surprise of grace to those who were not chosen. It was all about blessing and God's mercy and grace.

The Kingdom is still out there but it is not wrought yet. Jews accept the yoke of the Kingdom of Heaven, the 613 commandments are accepted. The Kingdom of Heaven is spiritual and brought to a world with an honest relationship with God.

Ezring on how people are considered Jewish: Nowhere in the Bible does it say Jewishness is only by heredity. You can choose to become a part of the Jewish faith but it is a long process and not to be taken lightly. Ezring says Paul wanted a big population of believers so he did away with the requirement of circumcision (which was painful and not done by other groups back then) to become a member of the Christian community.

Dr. Howell said Paul was not just interested in numbers. His understanding of Jesus was that of a saving story. You did not get to salvation by adherence to laws but the the grace and mercy of God. Paul believed laws made people overly judgmental and people could not keep all of them. Each one was meant to have a core, spiritual meaning. Paul had a transformed view of what the laws meant to convey.

Ezring said Jewish law is not used for judgment but to give a path to the proper way of living. Jews don't accept Pauline thought since it takes away personal responsibility. It takes away the law which is what makes religious life different. In paganism, life has no real value except for what can be given to the gods. The Bible teaches we have value in our eternal soul so it is important how we live and what we bring to the world. The law changed human history and changed the way we look at the value of each other.

Dr. Howell: Christians have loads of rules on how to live. Grace comes and then you want to do good.

Ezring: The Holy Roman Empire was followed by the Crusades. The law slackened and bad things were wrought by Christians.

Howell: Christians have had a bad record of thinking their own warring power is somehow attached to God and religion. The book of James says we need to keep the law and works do count vs Paul who says Gentiles can be part of God's people without adherence to the law.

Christianity began to spread throughout the Mediterranean and Jews and Christians split into two groups.

God's purpose in choosing people: Howell says it is for the task of bringing God's love to everyone else. God chooses unlikely people for his people and we have to respond to his call.

Ezring: Amos 3:2 "You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities." God is punishing because he chose these people and they were not doing right. When chosen, you are to be a light to other nations. Live a life of goodness, honesty, and openness. Love has to do with trust.

Ezring told of a camp sponsored by houses of worship where youth of Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths are brought together and it shows how we need to help one another and honor the rights of all. But faith is tested publicly this way and we need to put it to a private test.

Howell said the accomplishments of the Jews earning Nobel Prizes and other awards is commendable and notable but in the New Testament, we are also called on to embrace the world's poor and lowly.

Ezring was asked if it is possible to be born Jewish and not be Jewish and he answered yes and gave an example of a boy born to a Jewish family, adopted by a Catholic family and who was deemed not to be Jewish when he wanted to go to Israel to open a Christian organization. But he said traditionally, once a Jew always a Jew. If a Jew leaves for another faith and later wants to come back, it is done right away. Jews believe we are all children of God and those who are not part of the chosen Jews still need to follow the covenant laws.

Acts 15 agrees that those who are Jews will continue to follow the law.

Rabbi Ezring spoke of the seven laws of Noah which are inferred from Genesis 9 and 10. Traditional Judaism hold that God gave these laws to Noah and his family to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments are:

(1) to establish courts of justice
(2) not to commit blasphemy
(3) not to commit idolatry
(4) not to commit incest and adultery
(5) not to commit bloodshed
(6) not to commit robbery
(7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal (The way we treat lower forms of life is reflective of your own goodness.)

These commandments are simple and are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come. These laws are binding on all people since all people are descendants of Noah. The 613 mitzvah of the Torah are only binding on those who accepted them at Mt. Sinai and on those who take them voluntarily (by conversion). Also the Noahic commandments are applied more leniently to non-Jews than to Jews because non-Jews do not have benefit of the oral Torah to guide them in interpretation. (from jewfaq.org).

Howell: Jesus and Paul were good Jews. Jesus didn't say to make a new religion called Christianity. He taught, he crossed social boundaries and led by example. We do try to mimic Jesus' behavior but we don't say we must mimic Jesus. We can't come close to living like he did. We believe by grace of God and by faith in God, we are saved. Jesus did not think so much about himself. He was focused on others. Abraham did think about himself. Jesus was killed because he didn't defend himself. Jesus as Messiah can be a divisive statement so would rather look at how Jesus loved others.

Martin Buber (Jewish) - When asked about Messiah, said "I'm waiting for the Messiah to come. You think he has already been here and is coming back again. So let's wait for him together."

Isaiah 53 - Asked what suffering servant refers to if not the coming of Jesus, Rabbi Ezring said the suffering servant refers to Israel. In Exodus, Israel is referred to as "my chosen son" so that is how Judaism comes to that conclusion.

Asked about second coming, Howell believes there will be an accounting. How did we use our resources? Ezring believes there will be a time when history will be no more and an end of pain will come and people will live in harmony. God's presence will fill the world. Doesn't know if this will be in form of a personal Messiah or a Messianic era. However, we should all do things because it is right, not because we are trying to bring about a Messianic Era.

Jewish theology is about personal and collective suffering. Judaism is constantly changing to meet the needs of the day and the way people think. God does not get you back for things. We are given free will and we control some things ourselves. Those choices we make have consequences. God set a world order in process and he is not punishing and rewarding every time we act. We learn to find blessings in the world to make life meaningful. God and faith give us strength to face the world.

Judaism is a community religion. Jews can't practice Judaism alone. They need others for prayers, for keeping kosher (which is very difficult). The sense of community and family gives strength. Just witness a bar-mitzvah and you will see that. During Yam Kipper, forgiveness is asked and the prayers don't say "I" apologize but "we" have all sinned. We face judgment together.

Howell: We ave lost communal identity to some extent. We are often there for our personal salvation. Confession is not great in the Christian church. We don't have a corporate confession. Dr. Howell spoke of going to the Holocaust museum and being behind a Jewish group who was saying this is what Christians of Germany did to Jews. Howell apologized to the man and was criticized for doing so.

Ezring says the Holocaust did not bring Jews closer together. Orthodox Jews did not support Israel as a state after. So Jews were at odds over Israel.

On Judgement day, Jews will be judged on what they do. We need right reasons but just doing the right thing gets credited too. So just do it because you are supposed to and if you have right reasons and do it from the heart, maybe you get double credit. But just doing it gets credit too. The rationale for doing something isn't what counts. The fact that you did it is what counts.

Howell mentions an author (Ann Tyler) who said she thinks God should give us credit for what we thought of doing but didn't do.

Upon that the crowd was told we need to disperse. The meeting had lasted about 2 hours.